I know some pastors, elders, and members who for a variety of reasons: frustration, indifference, anger, hurt feelings, etc. have severed their emotional ties with our Church and especially our Presbytery. Their names may still be on rolls. They may even show up occasionally and pretend they are not disaffected. But the heart felt passion they once had for our larger Presbyterian Church is gone. I, Gary Larson, am one of them.
At the core of my situation is the feeling that my voice is not and has not been heard. Of the hundreds of letters I mailed to the Presbytery office and committee chairmen over 27 years as Pastor in Olean, I can count on one hand the responses I received. These were not letters of anger or protest. They were inquiries, responses, information, ideas. The reputation Presbytery has of being unresponsive and only coming to call when there is trouble is an earned reputation. Who is there to Shepherd the shepherds? Who takes initiative to keep in touch with and unconditionally support pastors laboring in the outposts?
In our Church’s history, we have valued minority opinions. Today, I sense that we are so deafened by the din of activity, distraction, and noise that minority voices are neither solicited nor heard. We sometimes think a few protestors filmed on the nightly news represent the “opposition”. Not so. They are only the louder voices and only a small segment of the opinions that find expression. Many other voices remain silent. I think we need to gently coax these many silent voices into expression so that we all can benefit from a more complete understanding.
I would like to begin a forum, similar to that of Monday Morning, for those of you who remember that little magazine of by gone years. I would like to see the “silent” voices of our Presbytery use this avenue to share their feelings and thoughts. I would like to see that we can banter around ideas in an honest search for truth. I would like to see that those who have disconnected have chosen to re-connect with their Church. Is it too late for some? Have they slammed shut, locked, and bolted the steel door forever? Honest feelilngs to be sure. But MY faith keeps nudging me to believe that closed doors can be reopened, feuds can end, and friendships can be restored.
In our Presbytery, we have tried to be open to disagreement over the years. But honestly, we can’t always attain the objective of “disagreeing agreeably” We don’t have to walk on egg shells worrying that we might say or do something to hurt another’s feelings.
My perspective is that anyone who tries to do anything worthwhile will be misunderstood by some. Heavens! Probably somebody is taking offense at what I’m trying to do here.
But, it’s a simple invitation for dialogue, not so much for those who talk freely and often too much, who too much love the limelight. But this invitation is for those of you out there in your outpost who just want to be heard, and maybe even appreciated. I’ll be writing more, and I hope you will also.
Gary Larson
May 7, 2009 at 3:37 pm |
Well, first, thanks for whomever created this forum! For years I have wanted to see such a venue.
In response to Gary, I have always felt a deep love and appreciation to our denomination. I have always been amazed and awed at Gary’s energy and ability to articulate his feelings and ideas. Maybe coming out of a fundamentalist, exclusive group so many years ago is one of the reasons I feel such appreciation for our church. At this point in my career, looking forward to retirement in July, I feel nothing but satisfaction and deep peace. I have never felt my “cup more full.” I realize the church is going through a needed and painful transition, but it yet remains exciting and hopeful to me, regardless of the outcome.
Perhaps it is because I feel such deep peace within that I just am bothered so little by discord, anger, or frustration around me. I just love people whoever they are, wherever they are, agree or disagree with myself. We are all God’s forgiven, loved children. I feel the “chief” of being called that in my heart. It’s hard not to then see others the same way, and want to give them gifts of love and abundance. I have felt heard, loved, and supported my whole career, except for those years when I missed seeing it. My body is certainly tired and I need some rest, but I hope I can still offer what I can until I “leave” and return Home!
May 7, 2009 at 4:38 pm |
Wonderful news! I can still remember as a new pastor finding such companionship in the Monday Mornings. The comments from other pastors were heartfelt and passionate. It was so much more helpful than any other publication I received. Sometimes, the comments were exactly what I was feeling at the time and at other times, they made me more aware of areas I that had gone unnoticed to me. This is a great idea, Gary. I agree with Dave that it is much needed and wanted. The ministry can be very lonely and this connection will be so helpful. When we are willing to speak from our hearts about own Truth, we can help others to do the same. That creates true community, I feel. Thank you, Gary for setting this up for all of us. Wendy
May 7, 2009 at 6:14 pm |
Thank you, thank you.
For me, this was a really difficult presbytery in which to “learn the ropes,” because there wasn’t a sense of connection to what many believe is the main body–the metro area. As long as I am willing to travel one or more hours, I can find support. Sorry, I have enough to do here in the Southern Tier! We have created our own community, which supports and nurtures me, and I’m so thankful.
I really feel the loss of that Shepherd you write of, Gary. Thanks for starting this forum.
Peace,
Leslie
May 7, 2009 at 6:15 pm |
By the way, do we pronounce that “pubby winny?”
May 10, 2009 at 5:54 pm |
Great idea Gary.
I’m hoping that the doors to the unchurched can be unlocked. Are our former members out golfing on Sunday mornings?
Clifton Kirkpatrick gave me hope this weekend that we can keep our denomination alive and well in the future.
Maybe we can’t open some of the closed doors, but there are many in our communities that need to know the love of God. The longer I serve on the CTMT, the more I learn about how important it is to break away from the “survival mentality” that so many of our churches live with today.
Community outreach and mission work could be the ways that all of us will be proud of our accomplishments as Presbyterians and take the focus off of our conflicts.
May 12, 2009 at 7:16 pm |
Hello Friends,
Okay, Gary, in the spirit of Monday Morning, I’ll join the conversation and even begin a new thread (though I do not know how to get this into a new “category”).
My concern is about Saturday presbytery meetings. I’ll not disguise my feelings. I dislike them intensely. For several reasons: (1) My own personal writing rhythm requires me to be hermetically sealed…oops….I mean hermeneutically sealed…in my study on Saturdays. As much as I wish it was different, after twenty-eight years I have discerned that the pattern is not likely to change…Saturday writing and even into Sunday morning is how I best prepare to lead worship. Saturday presbytery meetings are thus a problem for me. (2) If someone else is in the pulpit on a particular Sunday, Saturday becomes for me a rare weekend day with which to spend with my spouse or family. Perhaps it was divine harmony or irony, or maybe poor preaching scheduling on my part, but, for a while, it seemed that every one of my “off Sundays” was met with a scheduled Saturday presbytery meeting. (3) I “get” that the original idea for trying Saturday meetings was to enlarge the pool of attending elder commissioners since, so the hypothesis said, there are many elders who cannot make Tuesday meetings who, if the meetings were held on Saturdays, would become new commissioners. Frankly, at the few Saturday meetings I have attended because I “had to” for some reason, I did not see a swarm of new faces, at least not in sufficient number to offset the number of pastors who were not present, presumably because they also had other Saturday pressures or responsibilities. (4) If there is a wedding or funeral scheduled for a Saturday, that means a pastor who is presiding cannot come to the presbytery meeting no matter how much he or she might desire to do so. Tuesday meetings would allow for pastors to conduct a funeral service and still be present at an end of the afternoon meeting.
So…where are the numbers and statistics to show that Saturday meetings are accomplishing their stated purpose or involving more and different folks? (I don’t mean that those who attend Saturday meetings are “different,” just not the same folks who attend Tuesdays. You know what I mean…smile.) My anecdotal tally says that most folks prefer Tuesday meetings. BUT…if the numbers prove me wrong, I will retreat to my quiet Saturday place and wish everyone well.
What do you think? Go back to all Tuesday meetings? Keep things as they are?
Tom Sweet
May 12, 2009 at 7:52 pm |
AMEN, Tom! And I speak as one who lacks a “stable” on which to draw when there are unavoidable Saturday events. Or those you really *shouldn’t* miss.
May 13, 2009 at 1:07 pm |
I’m glad to see a “monday morning”-like forum starting and, judging by a growing number of responses, there’s real interest in it. in fact, as we witness the growing decimation of newspapers in near and far places. perhaps this would be a good moment to re-petition PCUSA national office requesting actual reinstatement of the wonderful little weekly periodical. Alas, i imagine the Rapture (for which a very select 144,000 are breathlessly waiting) has a greater likelihood of coming to pass than a resumption of a denomination-wide MM booklet.
In the likely extended meantime, I wonder if the web administrator for THIS forum could adjust the format so that contributors could, as Tom Sweet suggested, start NEW topical threads with provision for persons to do follow-up comment on new threads..? (cf. blogspot.com format for model)
Having been “away” from the official church fray for some time, I look forward to reading more here and occasionally adding a thought or two of my own.
May 13, 2009 at 3:07 pm |
Firstly, thank you to Dave Persons, Leslie Latham, Wendy Heinz, Don Taylor, Tom Sweet, and Angus Watkins for your responses which I have read. Seeing as how this is one of my “beefs” with the Presbytery at large, that it is UNresponsive, I wanted you each to know that I read your thoughts and appreciate that you shared them. (Doesn’t that make you feel good when somebody acknowledges your existence?)
Secondly, there may be some “younger” pastors and others who have no clue what MONDAY MORNING was. It was a small in size, monthly, free magazine sent mostly to pastors which contained articles on just about any subject which were debated sometimes by others and sometimes not. It was an “ideas” and “sharing” forum where pastors (mostly) could send out thoughts and see what the responses might be.
I suppose it was a little like fishing – cast out the bait and see if you get any bites.
Thirdy, concerning Tom Sweets concern about Saturday Presbytery meetings. I suppose somebody, maybe the stated clerk, could do an analysis of attendance at Presbytery meetings over the last 5 years, noting the day of the week, date, and time, so that we could do some reasonable anaylsis to see if the decision to “go Saturdays” made a positive difference or not. My concern was and is the elders whose schedules are generally more fixed than that of pastors. In spite of all the changes in society, most people still work 9-5 Monday thru Friday, which makes Tuesday day-time meetings hard for many if not most elders. Also, I had noted the increasing number of older bishops and elders, many of which will not drive after dark. That is why I had suggested sometime ago, that during the winter we have daytime, Saturday meetings in winter and when the daylight is longer, have Tuesday meetings.
Somebody, I guess, should be studying the consequences of the decisions we (or at least enough of a majority) made on that snowly day at Hamburg Wayside when too much happened.
Many of my questions, which I will write about in future space have to do with an analysis of several questions.
1) How do we think it is working, not having an executive Presbyter? Most people with whom I share this information laugh and respond with something like, “how can any organization function without a leader?”
2) Are we glad that we sold Camp Duffield? More importantly, part of the argument was that not being “bound” to Duffield, we could send our youth to other camping opportunities. How many of our youth have gone to other camps in the last 2 years now that the Presbytery no longer owns Duffield?
3) I also have deep concerns over the increase in power of COM and the number of lawyers in membership. In my education, I learned that the congregation, the pastor, and the Presbytery had equal power in brokering a “call”. Today, now, it seems that Presbytery has aquired
veto power. When, how did that happen? ( lest some misunderstand and think I’m advocating that Presbytery buy back the camp…No. Duffield, Inc. is quite happy on their own and those who have no interest in camping can be about their interests.
I’ve a good many things I’d like to talk about. My hope is that we will not steal away into the retreat camp of indifference and apathy. Perhaps there’s not fight left in most of us? I don’t know. But I would like to know your “passions”,
Gary Larson
May 13, 2009 at 3:19 pm |
In response to Gary’s last post:
Regarding Tuesday/Saturday meetings…Yes, if the numbers show that Saturday meetings are attracting a younger set of elders of working age who could not attend Tuesday meetings, I will mute my disdain for Saturday meetings. But my survery of the “crowd” at Saturday meetings seems to offer observation to the contrary. Generally, folks from a particular church drive together to meetings, so the concern of older folks not driving after dark is mitigated by car pooling. And even if there is a slight increase in younger elders attending Saturday meetings (I am not, by sight survey, convinced that there is), is it enough to offset the number of pastors who cannot or will not attend?
Peace be with us all.
Tom
May 13, 2009 at 3:22 pm |
Oh, and one more thing: It is not only some pastors who do not like Saturday meetings. Some elders do not either. Both of our continuing commissioners from First Pres, Jamestown have a difficult time making Saturday meetings while hardly ever missing a Tuesday meeting. Elders who work also have a desire/necessity to be with their families on weekends. So, while the move to Saturday meetings may have been made with good intentions of being more inclusive, it also works the other way.
Tom
May 13, 2009 at 6:59 pm |
As always, Tom, you offer good arguments. But let’s get to the hard research stuff. Who at Presbytery would have the responsibility of crunching attendance numbers and offering data so that we Presbyter’s can make objective decisions? Gary Larson
May 14, 2009 at 8:08 pm |
Some years ago, at an “evangelism” committee meeting at the Church, the chairperson and I got a little bit direct to suggest a better way. Presbyterians, being predominately introverts generally prefer to send out letters of invitation, to pay for advertising in local newspapers, and to mail the Church’s newsletter to prospective members. At said meeting mentioned above, we suggested that we make personal home visits to invite people to Church.
This “new and dangerous” method of doing evangelism resulted in the immediate resignation of two of our committee members. When they signed on, they said, they didn’t know they’d be expected to do “that!” What does this say about us and our declining membership, and people’s concept of who we are as a Church?
I think we clergy, and members, seem to be more comforatable sitting in our Church fortresses reading “I Refuse To Lead A Dying Church” than we are getting out into the stinky world of humanity’s problems. I also think that we clergy have become more self-absorbed than we have been in a long time.
In talking with seminarians these days, they seem to all want the “cushy” jobs, the Churches with big endowments that don’t expect too much, the multi-staffed positions where they can be protected by a kind Senior Pastor and learn the ropes for a few decades before going out on their own. They missed the lecture, apparently, where the notion was presented that pastors had better get used to spikes in their palms and of hanging on the cross. Ministry is dirty work and we can’t be insultated from the pain if we expect to serve the Lord we profess.
My fishing neighbor across the street, who was just called to glory a few months ago, used to say, “well, I’m going to do something, even if it’s wrong”. We Presbyterians are so methodical, contemplative, cautious and careful, that it takes us months and years to accomplish anything. And even then there’s no assurance the decision will be right. We take too much pride in “decently and in order”.
Which leads into the topic of the current trend of it taking 3 years to call a pastor and us somehow believing that “interims” are the answer for the in-between times. I am a graduate of the interim pastor’s 2 week training which presented ideas which could have been communicated in one hour. Our congregations are calling out for qualifed leadership today, not in 3 years. If there was ever a way to hobble a congregation, it’s the cumbersome process we have in place of calling the next “real” pastor. interim pastorates don’t favor congregations. They favor pastors. Time for a MAJOR overhawl of our system.
Gary Larson
May 15, 2009 at 12:23 am |
Thanks for bringing this up, Gary. I couldn’t agree more that we are going about the process in the wrong manner. I agree with you that we are often pastor-oriented instead of congregation -oriented. The Commissions and experts often go into the churches and use a top down approach. That is so unnecessary. The people in the pews are wiser than the outside committees about their chuch community. There seems to be a mindset that so many congregations are “troubled” or “unhealthy” and then years are spent trying to “make” them healthier. Often to no avail. What often happens is that the congregation loses all respect for the “experts”. I have served as an interim to two congregations and then for 15 years as an Installed pastor and I know that it takes a LONG time to get to know a congregation. You can’t just come down once a week with a group of people and attempt to “fix” a community of faith. Anyone who comes into a church with an agenda knows very little about the value of listening and growing with the congregation. Our listening teams of the past, in my opinion , had agendas. They did not just sit down and really listen to the deep rivers running under the flip charts and post it notes! I think that every interim and pastor needs to really get in touch with the depth of knowledge and experience of the people of the pews before any constructive work can be done! This is a subject near to my heart. Thank you for bringing it up…We need a much more pastoral approach to our congregations than we are seeing.
May 15, 2009 at 5:26 pm |
Thanks Wendy for your response. Anybody else out there want to chime in on this or other subjects?
May 21, 2009 at 3:17 pm |
I’m continuing to process, and find words. I hope to join the conversation more fully in the near future, and both enjoy and appreciate a place in which to collegially discuss the topics that no one or place seems to touch on. I would like the reflection on the current system, and whether it needs to change.
May 28, 2009 at 2:06 pm |
Imagine that a 10th grade class is told, “your regular teacher is going away. You’ll have a sub for the next 3 years, or if you’re lucky, we’ll assign the janitor to teach you. In the meantime, do a study to determine how you want to be taught in the future.”
Aren’t we doing something similar with congregations? “your “real” pastor is leaving. Hire a stated supply or an interim, and while you’re without a shepherd, figure out who you are and what you want for the foreseeable future.”
From many a pastor’s point of view, we see the value in “interims’ as a “transitiion” aide. But the feedback I receive from the laity is that the time in between installed, or called, or “real” pastors is wasted time. Things are simply put “on hold”. I am arguing that we, in the “management” shall we say, are not listening, and not hearing the calls coming out from our congregations because we pastors are so wrapped up in our pesonal needs.
We clery are called “shepherds”. What shepherd would leave his/her flock of sheep grazing on the hillside for 3 years, and expect upon his/her return that there would be much left of the flock? As I’ve mentioned before, I’m a grad of the 2 week interim pastor’s training. But I’m not convinced.
GM refused to adapt. Management put their head in the sand, rested upon their laurels, and announced to the world, “we’re still the biggest auto maker!. And now their blindness has put them on the brink of bankruptcy. I fear our Presbyterian Church is following the same pattern. We don’t need to tweak the machine. We need a major overhaul.
We’re so “heady” and cautious in our Church. We think mission studies and matching CIF’s with PIF’s will result in “good matches”. Not so, a good bit of the time. The truth is matches are more “gut” than objective. Matches “feel right” and if they’re not right, the pastor needs to move on.
Look at what professionals and executives do in other fields. When they accept a position, they move into their new community and “rent; they don’t buy a home immediately. They want to test out the waters and see if the match is really a match. If not, they’re usually gone in a year, or two or three. INTERIMS HAPPEN NATURALLY, whether we like it or not. Many an installed pastor has discovered, after the fact, that he’she was really a transition pastor. Well. Let’s move that argument further. Aren’t we all transition pastors whether our pastorates are for 2 years or 20? For 27 years in Olean, I always knew where my suitcases were, if the time to leave presented itself.
The bottom line is we have to get pastors into vacant Churches the next week, not in 3 years. Yes, the NEXT week. Those of you familiar with the Methodist system, well, I’m for it. At the top level of Prresbytery, we need a “Shepherd to the shepherds:, not someone to push around papers in the office. The Shepherd must know his/her shepherds and the congregations in his/her charge. They should make the matches, with input from pastors and Churches, obviously. We are, after all, trying to serve congregations. Yes, there could and should be an appeals committee to reconsider decisions given significant difference of opinon from the Shepherd’s judgement.
Will it happen? Nah. Hell will freeze over first. Just like the health insurance companies who have a firm grip on what is to the point that even the Federal Government cannot change the systen, we are likely to hold on until it’s too late. Every year, every year, we lose thousands and thousands of members nationwide. The sheep are wandering aimlessly without a shepherd to shepherd. Yes, there are some things we have no control over. And there are some things we could change.
Gary Larson
May 28, 2009 at 3:47 pm |
I’m not going to “bite” on my fishing buddy Gary’s stuff about the wastefulness of the interim period. In my view the present and future of PCUSA (and its congregations) does not sink or swim on that issue. The challenges run far deeper and broader! Further, i find the term “shepherd” summons a woefully arcane image of a rural grassy hillside spackled with sheep watched over by a guy/gal in a tunic with a staff that has a graceful crook and a busy dog (the real worker) casting back and forth, hustling his/her flock this way and that. It’s a sweet picture that still shows up in annual christmas pageants, but as a term for a 21st century leadership model, it’s an Edsel, a Studebaker, a Model A… We require a thorough diagnostic set of tests (no co-pays required, however!) to determine ways the beloved institution has become Edsel-like. Think terminology, concepts, symbols, architecture, franchise system, names of churches, music, lyrics, liturgy, etc., etc. To me, we’re STUCK, and we need to make radical departures from The Edsel Church That Once Was, setting out with a bold sense of ADVENTURE beyond what has been safe toward some as-yet unseen horizon, and perhaps in the process, become The Church That Will Be!
June 11, 2009 at 2:55 pm |
Saturday meetings: as a part-time commissioned lay pastor, Tuesday meetings are nearly impossible for me unless they are held close to where I work, and even then I would probably miss everything before dinner. I have taken time off for meetings before, but in my new job that will be impossible. If we go to nothing but Tuesday meetings, I will never be at a Presbytery meeting again. It was one of the reasons I never attended Presbytery as an elder at Riverside in Niagara Falls.
I write my sermons on Saturdays, and sometimes Sunday mornings. Presbytery meetings on Saturday often energize me to look at the world and church differently.
Time to call pastors: Three years is a long time. One of the things to speed the process is if churches were to create and update their “mission” studies regularly so that when it is time to call a new pastor, they already know who they are, what their mission is, and, as a plus, what they want in a pastor. Several teams in the Presbytery are working to make that process more accessible.
June 21, 2009 at 2:16 am |
I’ve been reading all the comments with quite a bit of interest. I am a recent Seminary graduate, work more than a full-time job during the week and am currently seeking a part-time call in this Presbytery. First I would like to say that I wholly understand the reason why Saturday meetings are not palatable to a great deal of the Clergy and some Elders. It is my only day off also and it is when I prepare for Sunday (if I am supplying a pulpit). It will also be my only day off if God so chooses to call me to a church.
That being said, however, I would like to agree with what Barbara posted above. In order to make Tuesday meetings (even those starting at 4:00) I have to arrange to leave work early by taking vacation time. I will still have to do so if I am called to a church. I thought that the compromise that was recommended by the re-structuring team made sense. And while I sitll don’t see numerous amounts of ‘younger’ Elders attending the meeting I don’t believe we have given it enough time.
However, if this Presbytery votes to go to Tuesday only meetings, I will be present as it is important to me and I believe a part of my call to ministry.
As for the time it takes to call Pastor’s and having now been on both sides of the equation I agree that 3 years is far too long for both churches and the prospective Pastors. The next week may be too soon but possibly within 6 months to a year would be better. My thoughts on the ‘Methodist” method of moving pastors is that it really does take God out of the equation. I believe that when a church calls me and I accept that God will be right in the middle of the mix.
June 11, 2009 at 3:19 pm |
New comment under “Fostering Our Presbytery” heading of this Forum – please join the conversation.
June 11, 2009 at 4:16 pm |
Brad or anyone else–
i use the link from the email to get “here.” Is it possible to link it to the Pbywny Forum home page? I didn’t realize there were other topics. But I’m not very computer literate. Thanks.
June 11, 2009 at 7:29 pm |
Hey Burt, did you get that A.C. report from central?
Yes I did, Erne, and my first impression was F.T.M.I. – far too much information. Not necessary. Overkill, if you will.
Well, controversy is everywhere Burt. I’m sure they were just trying to help.
You know Erne, when two kids are fighting on the playground, the best thing sometimes is for the teacher NOT to intercede.
Yeah, then somebody gets the holy beegeebers beat out of him.
Probably, but that’s good learnin’, Erne (nice rhyme, don’t you think?) And by the way, not necessarily. A little tension can develop negotiation skills. And if someone does get a bloodied nose, maybe they’ll take up martial arts and be ready for the next encounter.
For a Christian, Burt, you sound like a hawk.
Don’t go there, Erne.
Well, I kind of felt for that clerk lady going up against the big 8 in front of the room, standing there like a battalion….Looked more like a power play than information to me. But she challenged them. Not all the information you presented was accurate, she said, or words to that effect.
Erne, it’s dirty laundry, that’s all it is. We don’t need to see or hear it. How did it do any good for all those people to hear that two parties in our club are having difficulty getting along?
Don’t you read the newspaper Burt? That’s life. It’s dirty, ugly, messy, even in the Church. Are we going to pretend it isn’t there? Are we going to look away and let folks suffer, flopping around on dry land like a fish out of water?
Erne, you’re a bleeding heart liberal. Get a life.
O.K. Burt, enough of this. Get your gun and let’s pop off a few ground hogs.
You got it buddy.
Gary Larson9